Tuesday, April 26, 2011

Apology for silence

So it seems as though my prediction about being able to keep up to date with this blog have proved correct. The main issue appears to be that it took a really long time to write posts and I like them to be comprehensive rather than just a single thought.

I'm not sure if this is due to the way that religious arguments are generally read (by both theists and non-theists): if there is a single issue (however small) that appears not to have been considered by the author then the whole argument will be ignored comfortably. So this compels me to try to outline why potential objections fail, which takes a long time.

Hopefully I'll come back to the blog and write on serious matters again, even if they aren't comprehensive.

Anyway, let me post this now rather than keeping it indefinitely in my "drafts" section!

Sunday, April 3, 2011

Circular reasoning and miracles

It seems as though a common objection for atheists to level at Christians is that they are arguing in a circular fashion. For instance, consider the following hypothetical discussion between an atheist (A) and a Christian (C).

(C) The bible is God's inspired word, free from error.
(A) Why do you believe that?
(C) Because the bible says so.

Technically, this might not be arguing in a circle, because perhaps the Christian has some independent reason for believing that 2 Timothy 3:16 (which is generally used at least to show that the bible is God's inspired word) is true that would be revealed when asked for, but I'll take this as a clearly circular argument.

I have noticed in the past that atheists sometimes seem to argue in a circle when dismissing miracles out of hand.

(A) There is no God.
(C) But what do you make of the miracles that Jesus did, which seem to be historically recorded for us? That's why I believe in God.
(A) I neither know nor care about the historical evidence for these miracles, because miracles cannot occur.
(C) What makes you sure that miracles cannot occur?
(A) Because they defy the laws of nature.
(C) But if there is a God then couldn't he make an exception to the laws (or as I might say, the patterns) of nature?
(A) But there is no God, and you seem to be assuming there is. Nature is all there is, and that is governed by scientific laws.

Sometimes the argument isn't laid out quite like this, but it's rhetorically shrewd on the part of the atheist because not only are they arguing in a circle but they end up implying that the Christian is the one with the circular reasoning. In fact, the Christian is only starting from the premise that it is possible that God exists and using the evidence of miracles to infer that it's likely that God exists. In contrast, the atheist starts with the assumption that there is no God and uses that to infer that there is no God.

Of course, it's possible that the atheist might argue differently and question the historical evidence and say that it has been fabricated, or corrupted etc., in which case they avoid the circle. But even this can be dangerous because their certainty that it must have been fabricated or corrupted generally flows from their preexisting belief that there is no God. In fact, even if there is only a minuscule chance (for instance) that the entire early church was deceived and/or deceptive, that will be a preferred explanation for the widespread belief in the miraculous events (including the resurrection of Jesus), since the atheist in this discussion is already convinced that miracles cannot occur.

But I will reserve my thoughts on what constitutes sufficient evidence to believe an account of a miracle for another post. At this point I'll just hint at my suspicion that Carl Sagan's saying that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" might also be straying into circular territory when applied to reject the historical evidence for miracles.

Wednesday, March 16, 2011

Some objections to a proposed definition of morality

In my previous post I questioned whether atheists have any grounds to be talking about morality as if it were some objective reality that allowed actions to be classified as 'right' or 'wrong'. I will now try to address a response given in my friend Andrew's blog post (posted here), in which he aimed to provide an atheistic description of what 'right' and 'wrong' actually are. I will quote parts of his post as necessary.

(EDIT: I have made some changes to my original version of this post, having received some clarificatory remarks from Andrew in private correspondence.)

The piece starts:
Morality is a concept that emerges whenever self-aware, emotional beings interact. We say something is "wrong" if it causes, or could cause, undue suffering to an individual, and we develop, either biologically or intellectually, heuristics to judge actions on this basis.
So, here we have an attempt to define the word 'wrong' in terms that make sense within an naturalistic worldview. I'll quickly flag that I was not entirely sure what an 'individual' is in the definition but Andrew has clarified that he is referring to humans and animals.

There is a word that has been smuggled in here which I think needs to be removed for this to be a non-circular response to my objection and that is the word "undue". I originally assumed that it carries the same weight as "undeserved", or "unjust", but these concepts seem to also require a proper notion of morality (and possibly justice) as an objective reality. Andrew has clarified in personal correspondence that he actually means "except in an effort to reduce some other suffering by some other means."

So, I will re-write his definition to remove this potentially misleading word:
We say something is "wrong" if it causes, or could cause, suffering to a human or animal (except if it is done in an effort to reduce some other suffering by some other means.)
I'm happy with this as being a coherent concept within a naturalistic framework (for convenience let's assume that there are no issues with 'causing' that might be introduced if you thought the universe's physical laws meant that it was impossible to actually change the course of events) because the concept of suffering can plausibly be boiled down to some physiological or chemical reaction within the brain.

One serious issue with Andrew's blog post is that, as far as I can tell, it doesn't address the main issue, namely, upon what basis a naturalist could actually say that something is right or wrong. Does he believe he is simply providing a definition for the word 'wrong', or does he believe he is trying to describe some moral reality that categorises actions as right or wrong? Would he be happy with my saying "We will call an action 'wrong' if it causes a response of laughter, or the adopting of an Irish accent." Is the reason this definition is incorrect/inferior just that this is not what most people mean by the word 'wrong'? I wish to press the point that Andrew's definition is inadequate because I want him to refine his definition (or description) of morality and then I want to ask him: what makes him sure that that is a better definition, except that it agrees more closely with his moral intuitions now?

To that end, I have listed a few objections, hoping to elicit a more thorough description of morality. (Andrew did say in an email that his post was "by no means comprehensive", so this should not be taken as a complete rejection of his position but as a request for more detail.)

Objection 1. Killing is okay?

Killing under this definition is not wrong, provided that (a) there is no afterlife, and (b) nobody else will be caused to suffer as a result of killing. Let's say that upon arriving in Australia in the 1770, James Cook and his friends decided to obliterate all the Aboriginal people. If they do so by inviting individual tribes onto the boat and then killing them swiftly and painlessly with a gunshot to the back of the head (or anachronistically, perhaps he just dropped a series of nuclear bombs over the entire country), then what suffering is caused?

The people who die aren't suffering (assuming, with the atheists, that there is no afterlife, and they just cease to exist). The people waiting to die aren't suffering, for they don't know that they are about to die; in fact, perhaps they're looking forward to this tea party on the boat that they have been invited to. And there is no issue of the grieving loved ones, provided the killing is done efficiently enough that people are killed before they find out that their loved ones died.

So, does Andrew think it is wrong to wipe out an entire nation, even if nobody suffers in their dying? If not, why does he use genocide in the Old Testament as an example of biblically endorsed immorality?

Objection 2. Bad attitudes and thoughts are okay?

Another category in which I think this definition does not agree with our moral intuitions is in the area of what we are thinking. Is it wrong of me to be happy when I look at another person's joy? Presumably not. Is it wrong of me to be happy at seeing the misery of others? Most people would say so. If I heard that a tsunami had caused thousands of deaths and then started smiling and chuckling inwardly thinking "That's great, because there have been many dead ones and probably thousands more will die from starvation and secondary diseases." If I just keep these thoughts to myself (so as not to cause distress to other individuals), have I done something wrong? Well, I have not caused any suffering to anyone by being happy about it, so I guess not under the proposed definition.

What about if I not only feel good when other people are suffering but actively call to mind past suffering experiences to remind myself of how happy I am at others' misery? Is this action wrong, provided I am able to do it and still act in a suffering-avoiding way towards others?

Objection 3. How do we decide between competing individuals' suffering?

A realistic view of morality should include some guidelines to allow us to decide some situations in which both option A and option not-A bring about suffering. For instance, if my neighbours decide that they would really like to have a loud party from 3am every night and I decide that I'd actually like to be able to sleep, is it wrong of me to ask the police to stop their parties? I am causing them suffering (in the sense that they would derive greater happiness from having the party and I'm reducing that), but they were also causing me suffering. We need some way to adjudicate.

What about if I decide that, on reflection, the fact that my neighbours are even able to listen to music is mildly irritating and so my wife decides to send around thugs to tear their ears off violently and then surgically remove their ear drums? Has my wife acted immorally? She has caused suffering, but she has also reduced my suffering.

Or, allowing the scope of "individual" to include animals, is it wrong of me if I decide that I find this mosquito mildly irritating to squash it, even if I've read in an entomology journal that mosquitoes die slow and painful deaths after they've been squashed (just pretend, or substitute an animal that is like this, like a chicken that apparently can run around with its head off)? Is it wrong for a person in a third world country to kill a goat in order to feed their entire family for a week? Assume that they don't have the means to kill a goat in a swift and decisive manner, so the killing will cause great suffering to the goat.

Andrew has made some steps to discuss the issue where two parties are involved in his post, so I will use his example, in which he addresses the question of whether slavery was wrong even though the majority of people believed it was okay.
The slaves didn't believe in slavery, and blacks didn't believe in white supremacy, and these were the people doing the suffering, suffering that would have been prevented if people followed a morality that included a heuristic to avoid these behaviours.
But couldn't a similar argument be put forth to show that abolishing slavery was also wrong? It would go something like this: "The slave owners did believe in slavery, and white people did believe in white supremacy and now they are suffering by having all their slaves taken away from them (or being forced to pay them a wage, causing the owners to be deprived of other things they could have used that money for)." So, what is it that means that the slave owners' suffering is less important than the slaves' suffering? Or was it also wrong to abolish slavery?

Maybe I am being a little harsh to press this point here, because Andrew could change his definition to say that a 'morally right' action is one that minimises total suffering, where that is measured in some way. This still has issues, such as in a hypothetical town where the majority of people have (what I might describe as) perverse preferences, so that they feel massive agony whenever they see a particular 10 year old boy quietly walking around the town, minding his own business. In this country would it be right to say to this boy, "No you are not free to walk around the town; indeed, it is morally wrong for you to do so because you're causing all this suffering"? Would it even be right to just cut this boys' legs off? His painful suffering would be nothing compared to the agony that his running around is causing the town.

So we are in a bit of a quandary. The typical response to the above reasoning is to say that this boy has certain human rights, including the right to be able to walk around town without fearing for his safety. But what is a naturalistic basis for these rights; where are they coming from? Without an objective moral basis it's hard to say they're anything more than what the majority of people feel uncomfortable with the removal of. So, if I ask a naturalist what gives a child the right to walk around safely (even though the child is despised by the whole town, so his walking is causing great suffering), there seems to be no real answer. But I welcome Andrew's response on this point.

Objection 4. How does justice fit in?

Is there a role for punishment that isn't only preventative of future suffering? For instance, if a dictator kills half of a nation (in such a way that much suffering is caused, for the sake of fitting within Andrew's definition), what is a morally right response to this? Well, if all we are interested in is minimising future suffering, we could isolate this dictator and try to rehabilitate him to become less murderous. Perhaps we could make sure the rest of the world believed that the form of isolation was particularly unpleasant so it could serve as a disincentive to future dictators.

But would it be wrong for us to isolate him on a beautiful and exotic resort island with an unlimited supply of food and drink and anything else (apart from human company) he might desire? Part of the deal could be occasionally having him placed into a movie studio simulating Guantanamo Bay so it could give the impression of squalour and misery, so people feel better about the situation, and other dictators are discouraged? According to the definition proposed above, this would be fine.

Alternatively, pretend the dictator commits a pain-free suicide as soon as he is about to be punished. If it turns out that there is a God who decides whether to send people to heaven or hell based on their actions, would it be morally praiseworthy (or at least acceptable) for God to say "You will now enjoy all the bounties of heaven, because there would be no point in punishing you for your atrocities on earth"? I'd like to hope that most of my atheist friends would think the act of simply ignoring the dictator's atrocities would make God morally deplorable. (For what it's worth, I do not believe God is like this; I believe he is just in his judgements. This is included as an autobiographical note, and this post provides no attempt to justify this belief of mine.)

Objection 5. Can you say with any confidence that something is wrong?

This is more a pragmatic objection that I have to Andrew's definition, but I'm not sure how one could say with any confidence that a particular action is wrong (or right). Sure, it might look as though it causes suffering for the short or intermediate term, but perhaps it actually turns out to reduce suffering in the long run. I have so far ignored the possible variations of whether the right thing is (a) to try to minimise suffering, or (b) to actually minimise suffering.

If option (a) is the proposal, then this means that Andrew cannot think it is wrong for the Pope to work against condoms being introduced even though they would reduce AIDS incidence. Why? Because the Pope is trying to minimise the suffering of the African people, under his set of beliefs that a sexually promiscuous lifestyle will ultimately cause them more suffering (factoring in afterlife implications). I do not wish to defend a Catholic view on contraception, but just to point out that the Pope seems under option (a) to be doing the right thing, by trying to minimise suffering.

If option (b) is the proposal, then the Pope's actions still cannot be classified simply as wrong, unless Andrew knows the exact consequences that will follow from them. Perhaps (an atheist might reason), the banning of condoms and the subsequent AIDS explosion will lead people in the west to become aware of the plight of the rest of African people and pledge far more aid than they otherwise would have. Indeed, even if the Pope were performing his actions out of spite (perhaps because he simply wants the African people to get AIDS) then Andrew might end up having to classify his actions as right, since they ultimately resulted in less suffering.

In any case, it seems as though the pragmatic objection cannot just be brushed aside, because quite clearly atheists and theists alike want to be able to classify some actions clearly as right or wrong. If an atheist sets the test as something that is computationally intractable then that removes any warrant they have for being able to do the classification. Incidentally, I choose the Pope example not because I have any insights into it, just because I have seen Andrew's comments elsewhere to the effect that he does believe the Pope acted immorally.


There are so many more things I could write about this topic but I'll leave it with those five objections and save some other thoughts for other posts. I have barely addressed here a far more foundational question that might crop up elsewhere in the blog, namely, is this just a word game here? Does the word 'wrong' just mean "minimising suffering" (possibly with parts modified to respond to my objections), and if so does it provide any guidance as to what we are to do with our lives? Is there a correct, objectively accessible, notion of wrongness that brings with it some sort of obligation to behave in that way?

Having read some of this article on Moral Naturalism I am starting to suspect that the waters I'm currently sailing towards are too deep for my intellect and (lack of) philosophical background. But perhaps my objections above will at least help people who are inclined towards moral naturalism to think about what they are actually saying if they describe something as right or wrong.

Tuesday, March 8, 2011

Moral objections to Christian Belief

Until recently, people wishing to discredit the bible often did so by arguing that it was untrue, asserting that it contained records of events that either did not happen or could not happen.

Many apologetics have been written to address these objections, and perhaps one day I will write one. If I did so, I might try to divide the objections into these three categories.
  • Historical Objections: claims that a particular event probably/definitely did not occur.
  • Scientific Objections: claims that a particular event could not occur on our planet because it would violate the known laws of science. Accounts of miracles fall into this category.
  • Logical/Philosophical Objections: claims that a particular event or set of events could not occur simultaneously, regardless of the laws of science. Alleged contradictions fall into this category.
I will hopefully address some of these objections within subsequent posts, especially if I think I have a novel response to them. The particular class of objections that I am noticing more and more is objections not that the bible is untrue because of any reasons above, but that God is simply immoral (therefore not worthy of worship, or believing in) or that some or all Christians are immoral (therefore the worldview of Christianity is not worth considering) or that the belief in a religion leads to evil acts (therefore such a belief should be discouraged or banned). I shall consider these to be a fourth category of objection.
  • Moral Objections.
I don't think I am just imagining this phenomenon. Richard Dawkins writes in The God Delusion
The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully
It's true that he doesn't directly say within this quote that God is evil but it is clear that this is a criticism of God as portrayed in the bible rather than simply a neutral list of observations. The only part of the quote that fits into the first three categories above is referring to God as a fictional character; the remainder seems to be saying that God is morally reprehensible.

Christopher Hitchens gives the game away more clearly (even just from looking at the title) within his book God Is Not Great, which I admit I have only skimmed through in order to find a quote such as this one at the start of Chapter 15:
There are, indeed, several ways in which religion is not just amoral, but positively immoral.
One need not talk to a frank atheist for long before they start listing the many ways in which they believe God, the bible or Christians are morally flawed. Whether it is a survey of historical events such as the inquisition or child abuse within the church, or a look through the bible to point out God's apparent endorsement of capital punishment for adultery and homosexual behaviour, it is not hard to find the objections to the Christian faith based on morality arguments.

In the past I have responded to these objections by trying to defend that God as described in the bible is morally good and praiseworthy and that our conceptions of what is good or evil should be changed accordingly. Being able to do this is important for the Christian faith because I am generally arguing that the whole picture of the bible is true, and God's goodness is a clear part of that picture. I might argue along those lines elsewhere within this blog.

But recently I've taken a different tack, inspired somewhat by Tim Keller, a pastor from New York. I am now inclined to postpone providing a complete justification for God and instead asking the atheist objector on what basis they judge an action to be right or wrong.

That is, an objector asserts that it's wrong for Christians to kill people who don't believe in God. I agree, but I'd like to ask what basis they have for their conviction that it's wrong. They assert that it's wrong for God to send people to hell. I disagree, but rather than focussing on the disagreement, I again wish to know what basis they have for categorising God's actions as wrong or right.

Really what I'm looking for, then, is a coherent atheist worldview in which there is a sensible notion of right and wrong. If there is not, then atheists should stop talking about God's actions (or Christians' actions) in the language of 'right'/'wrong' or 'good'/'evil' and start using language that does make sense within their worldview, like 'pleasing to most people'/'displeasing to most people' or 'causing the sensation of pain'/'causing the sensation of pleasure'. Imagine if a scientific text book kept referring to the "miracle of photosynthesis" or the "majesty of almighty God's creation"; it would seem particularly ridiculous to use such language if it transpired that the author did not believe in miracles or God.

It is worth noting that, despite his indictment on God quoted earlier, Richard Dawkins (who I know does is not representative of all atheists) implies that evil does not exist: "The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference."

Possible responses

I have laid down this challenge for a few of my friends so far. One friend has said that he believes there is no such thing as wrong/right but the language and idea is very hard to shake, and that this is the result of a Christian heritage in Australia, so that's why it slips into his speech and his thinking. Further, the language of morality is very handy in making persuasive arguments so he doesn't mind adopting it. I'm not sure where to go with this line of reasoning; it seems to be an admission that he is happy to live under a delusion that morality exists and only when he inspects his beliefs about morality itself does he concede they're basically just strong likings and dislikings that he feels about certain actions.

Another friend of mine, Andrew, has written a blog post about the subject, presenting a view which I think is slightly different. His post can be found on his blog here, and I will attempt to respond to it in my next post, so won't say much more about it yet.

There are a couple of possible lines of argument that I think are stronger than the two mentioned above. The first is to say that "Sure, I don't believe in this concept of right and wrong, but you, Bryn, claim to believe in it. So I'm simply borrowing your concepts to show that the bible is inconsistent. That is, I'm really making an argument that the bible is logically inconsistent because it claims that God is loving but then it also claims that God punishes people for not worshipping him."

I guess this is an acceptable line to take, but perhaps the structure of the argument could be made clearer if this is what people are actually trying to say. When Christopher Hitchens asserts that religion is immoral and amoral, he seems to be saying that he actually believes this to be a true assertion about religion; i.e., it is a wicked thing. So, basically, I don't believe that the atheists with whom I've had this discussion are actually trying to assume the biblical morality and show that it's internally inconsistent.

Another issue I have with the approach is the minimal attempt to engage with the biblical view of morality. How many times have I heard "Well, the bible says wives should submit to their husbands, but that is patently an immoral position to hold, so I'm not going to engage further with the bible"? (Actually probably only once or twice, but I'm sure more people think this!).

The second line of argument that I could imagine one taking is to say that an external moral truth does exist that means some things can be classified as morally right and some as morally wrong. In response for a justification of their belief in this external moral standard, an atheist could respond by saying that they neither have one nor need one. Indeed, an atheist is simply someone who does not believe in the existence of any gods, which does not entail a disbelief in things outside the natural world. So a suitable response could be that there are truths about the natural world that science can hope to discover and there are truths that are not about the natural world, such as moral truths.

But really, this whole blog post is directing a challenge at naturalistic atheists, for whom this final defense is not available. I suspect it's not an appealing answer for an atheist to give because it seems to be (a) a claim not about physical reality, and (b) a claim that cannot be backed up with evidence. Sure, you could provide evidence that stealing from people, or hitting them, causes suffering. But that is different from showing that it's actually wrong (I'll try to address this distinction in replying to the blog post mentioned above).

For the reader has made it thus far, scrolling down to the bottom of the post in the vain hope that my ban on commenting has been lifted, I say: Well done, good and faithful blog reader! I'll try to make subsequent posts shorter.

Sunday, March 6, 2011


The aim of this blog is to provide the perspective of a Christian living in Melbourne.

Well, more precisely, the aim is to provide the perspective of a particular Christian living in Melbourne, namely mine. Some of the issues raised might be related to Melbourne and some might be more global in scope. Most will hopefully be providing a Christian perspective and not just a personal rant that bears no resemblance to what Jesus might blog.

I will say from the outset that I imagine this blog will not be regularly updated for long. My modest aim for the blog is to have more posts than occasional readers, which at the moment would be satisfied by my writing a second entry.

My pessimism about how long the blog will last and how much I will write is based on past experience with attempts to update my website and also with seeing so many friends try (and fail) to blog for an extended period. It would be naive to assume that I have a greater ability to stick with it than my friends had. In this case, the issue is not that I have little to say about how my Christian beliefs relate to the world around me (to the contrary, there is much I would like to say), but more that I have many other things that I do in my life and part of actually being a Christian is that I have responsibilities to my family, work and church that I will prioritise above my "internet presence".

I am hoping, regardless of the size of my readership, that writing my ideas and arguments in blog format will help me to articulate my views more clearly and concisely. How many arguments over the years I have won in my head as I walk along thinking about how a line of argumentation might go! By writing such arguments out I am hoping to weed out some fallacious reasoning (or lazy thinking), so that I can better articulate them when speaking to people face to face. In Christian jargon, you might say that blogging will help my "1 Peter 3:15"ing.

The blog's name is "Yet another Melbourne Christian voice". I wanted to have something like "Yet another Christian Apologetics Blog", but yacab.blogspot.com was taken (and so were all variants that I could think of). I don't think I'm a typical Melburnian, although I do love this city, so in that sense I feel a bit silly pretending that my voice is that of a distinctive "Melbourne Christian". But yamcv.blogspot.com was free, so here I am. If you came here looking for something related to yams, or Curriculum Vitaes then you are probably in the wrong place, and you should probably consider finding a new search engine.

Finally, a note about commenting. I don't want people to comment on my posts and I have attempted to disable this within blogger. There are a few reasons for this, and if I allowed comments I'd be happy to hear readers' views on the subject. The primary reason is that whenever I read an article or blog post, no matter how interesting or persuasive the piece is, I end up looking at the number of "likes"/thumbs ups, and the nature of the comments posted after it.

My final verdict is coloured by the mini-democracy of people who can be bothered commenting on the posts. If the original poster doesn't respond to every single objection raised in the comments it can give the impression that they don't have the answers (rather than just that they don't have time or energy to do so). How much more is this the case when fundamental worldview questions are involved? If a post seems to put forth a persuasive argument that God exists, it is much easier to bypass the "thinking about it" phase if there are 500 angry atheists (or one persistent one) commenting about how this is rubbish because of (a), (b) and (c). If (a), (b) and (c) are reasonable objections then no doubt they've been put forth elsewhere in the blogosphere in a more articulate form and perhaps I'll come across them and post responses as standalone entries.

By not allowing comments I am missing out on the chance for valuable feedback though if my arguments are unpersuasive, or fallacious, or (worse in my view) presenting an unbiblical view of God. This is simply the price I will have to pay. If you see any majorly glaring issues you could email me and I'll try to look at them, and possibly even update my blog posts in light of them. Similarly if you find any spelling/grammatical/typographical mistakes please let me know; I cannot stand such errors.

You might wonder why I'd spend so long writing down ground rules for a blog that I expect not to last long. That is not a consequence of my being a Christian (or being a Melburnian) so much as the consequence of my being a perfectionist. I'd like to set things up so that, in theory, I could have a long running and successful blog.